Category: philosophy/religion topics
Are you for or against it/?
There's nothing wrong with being gay or gay marrage.
Forit for these that are against it for myself.
I think a person's sexual preference/identity is none of my business and they should be allowed to do whatever makes them happy, as long as they're not causing harm to others. I also think that all rights, including marriage, should be fully extended to all people regardless of sexual orientation.
Gay isn't right. If it were supposed to be right then a woman and a woman or a man and a man could have a child together. Obviously a man can't get another man pregnant. We are supposed to be man and woman, that is the way we were made in order to keep the world going by reproducing.
Gay marriage? That isn't even right. If you want to be with the person ok, but marriage? marriage is a sacred thing. I mean if you want to have the thing together like with the JP fine but that should be called a civil union, not marriage.
And for those of you who are going to get all pissy and say there is nothign wrong with marriage and God doesn't care. Where does it say that?
Holly
Ah true, marriage has lost it's meaning nowadays. How dare people choose who they want to marry, and not let their families find the right one to spread the genes, or gain financial prosperity! That goes for medicine too, I mean, weren't we supposed to die of chicken pox and common colds gone bad? I'm all for gay rights and life style.
Lol HotPerro, had to laugh at that one. I would concentrate on who the person is as an individual, rather then their sexual orientation. As for gay marriage? it's their choice.
Personal choice...Or makeup. Totally depends on your point of view...I think some people are simply born with their "sexual preference" like it's part of their genes...(I'm not saying it is or isn't, I'm not a geneticist)...And I think some develop it through life experience...(such as multiple rapes)...However, no matter which way it happens, I think how one lives is up to them; as long as it hurts none. Also, for some preaching about "God", will get you know where. First, how do you know what "he" intended? Do you have a direct link to his mouth? I'm not being snide, but I've always been curious...I mean, yeah, I know the bible doesn't support gay relations, but on the other hand it does support in insest. And, some simply don't believe in one single "God", and before anyone gripes at me because this is a "Religion Topics" board...I may not believe like Christians, but my religion is still a religion, and unless I'm told otherwise, it still fits in here.
I totally agree with Tyr. Gays and gay marriage are very much valid, in my opinion. And as for the whole "the Bible says" and "it's not really marriage because they can't have kids," I think that's a bunch of bull. Look at half the so-called marriages these days. Half the gay people I know would have a lot more "sacred" marriages than the straights. Think about that!
Caitlin
Yeah, I use to be against it, but over the last couple of weeks, thinking over about it helped me.
Here is my current views.
If you are with another of your sex, then there's no way you can get anything messed up, well, except for stds. Please, STDS are not for you to bringing it up upon. If both partners check with there doctors then there shouldn't be a problem. besides, no strange, things why? They can't get pregnant! So, why not let them be happy and with each other?
Yes, there are several scriptures that say gay is wrong. But lets go to your thinkings. If you love someone, you should be able to marry them no matter what. Well what about an 85 year old man and a 7 year old girl? They love each other, so can they get married? Also people love their animals, should they be able to marry their dog? If it were supposed to be, then like I said, gays would hbe able to have kids. Let's say we're all going to go gay and wom and man and forget the sperm doners and all that medical implantation of kids. What do you know, the world will die off because no one will be reproducing. Gays might make wonderful parents, I didn't say they wouldn't. I said they can't have kids. two girls can't go to the back room get it on and end up pregnant unless there was a guy involved in it as well. As far as the medicine issue, well look how much the doctors help[ us. heh, they jsut give us medicine that causes other side effects so we haveto come back and see them and they mess us up even more. Too many people are dying from cancer and the doctors don't want to cure it, jsut temporarily put a bandaid on it, so that they won't lose their clients and money. Used to doctors cared now days it's all about money. If you can't pay them they dont' want to help you. Just like right now, I despritely need brain surgery but it's all about money. Until I get the money I can't have the surgery i need. And I could die before then.
I can only respond to the love issue. First on age...(and I hope where talking about the true love and not familiar{family})...Culture determines how old someone must be before they can be ready mentally and emotionally to love and all the responsibilities that come with it. In some cases I agree with the US outlook on this, but there is sometimes I don't. However, when we're talking about gays who are in love, I think most of us are referring to what the given culture (in my case the US) sees as responsible adults. We're not talking about what is culturally seen as one party being unable to accept mentally and emotionally (let's not even get into the physical) the responsibilities that come with truly loving...Unconditionally loving. I don't care about age. However, with a 7 year old (as in your example) you've got to ask is she mentally and emotionally ready to give the love in return, is she ready to take "adult" responsibilities, take responsibility for her actions, listen when he needs to talk, understand the financial needs of life, give as well as she gets? And these are just a few things that come to mind when I think about what giving and receiving love with my husband means. In my opinion, in these days and times, very few (if any) 7 year olds are prepared for a true loving relationship. So, in my opinion the above example for age is an extreme example that is invalid. If there is a 7 year old prepared for all of this, then they've never had a childhood, and I'm still left wondering if they're truly prepared for everything that goes into it. Again, I won't even touch on the physical aspects of this particular age question...Now, as for an animal...It turns my stomach to even think about it. However, a marriage should be love given both ways, and as we have no way of "knowing" an animal loves their human in such a way to make a true love relationship I once again think this example is an extreme and invalid one.
Alrighty, let's not say 7 but 12. How bout that? There are several 12 year olds having babies now. So obviously they are ready for it otherwise they wouldn't be running around ahving sex. Yes, animals can show their love back to you. Just can't talk, but can still communicate with you. It's sick, but I was just pointing it out.
Lmao, Holly you amuse me.
The bible part.
Yeah, guess what? It's against muslims too, so you are against muslims and the other things it's against? Are you against working on the sabbath, which is on sunday?
Oh, lets see... Why would some twelve years old like some random guy about his grandpapa's age? I mean even a twelve years old male, that's kind of impossible, but... we aren't talking about age difference here. That'll be a different debate. I'll challenge you to that one too.
What is producing? It is when the two organisms can mate and reproduce. As much as some sick people want to breed with there puppy, that can not ever happen, so let us not even go there.
To answer some specific points made by previous posters…as a Christian, I do have a direct link to what God said, it is the Holy Bible. Now, you may not accept what the Bible says, or believe in the Christian God, but as for believers, it does give us His intentions.
You are right that the Bible does not support homosexuality, but you are wrong about the incest, it is said to be wrong in great detail. That is not to say that descriptions of incest aren’t mentioned, but they are condemned. As for the Bible being a bunch of bull, God has given us the freewill to accept it or not.
I find it interesting that antidotal evidence is so often given in these arguements. Half the gay people I know would have a lot more "sacred" marriages than the straights. Well, if only half would have such a marriage, that means that half would still not. (I just looked at your profile Caitlin, and I see you are young. Please don’t thing this a personal attack; I was just using what you said as an example.)
As for the comment about marriage being a relationship where love should be given both ways, that invalidates many marriages across the world. Yes, I personally believe love is an essential part of marriage, but many cultures base marriage on other criteria.
A couple of months ago, I posted something on a board discussing gay marriage. What follows is what I wrote then. Some of what is written may not exactly make sense in this board, since it was a response to specific elements of the original board. I think though, it sums up what I believe.
I’ve read all these posts, and now I’m probably going to get in trouble, but here’s what I think anyway. A lot of posters wrote that people should be allowed
to do what they want if it’s not hurting anyone; I don’t know that I can defend that argument.
If you follow that argument to its conclusion, then we should condone marriage between a person and anyone or anything else. Should an adult be allowed
to marry a child? Should an adult be allowed to marry a goat? You laugh and say that’s ridiculous, a child or an animal, but if you are setting standards,
then your own argument about it being ok as long as no one is hurt doesn’t hold up. I don’t know that I would want to give a rock, a goat, or a ’57 Chevy the same rights as a person, but the minute you set standards, your original premise is invalidated. . I’m not comparing homosexuality to these things either, so don’t accuse me of doing so. These examples though are, or have been, done in some cultures though.
Whether we like it or not, we all have our personal values, and have to decide then what they are based on. I find it interesting that those with a more
liberal view of life are among the first to condemn those that disagree with them, calling them “closed minded and intolerant.” I come from a Christian perspective, which
will cause some who read this to automatically discount what I say, but that goes back to my previous statement. I make no claims of living a perfect life,
so don’t accuse me of assuming a holier-than-thou attitude, I’m just telling you where my values are based.
The thing is, we do need values, and to be able to make value based judgments, or there would be anarchy. In the U.S. at least, our whole system has a Judeo-Christian
foundation. As far as the constitution goes, it doesn’t say there is a separation of church and state, it says “Congress shall make no law respecting an
establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;” This simply means congress can’t make a national religion, or stop people from practicing
their own.
Now, getting back to the gay marriage issue, I agree with something someone I was talking to said. Marriage seems to fall under a religious category, while
civil union is under a governmental category. I don’t know of any main stream religions that support gay marriage. If the marriages are legalized by government,
it would in essence be telling people how they can or can’t worship. The government already has some control over religious activities as is. It’s illegal,
for instance, for a pastor or priest, to give any sort of political endorsement, or the non-profit status of the church is in jeopardy. Adding to this governmental involvement seems to be taking even more away from the first amendment.
I’ve tried to make a coherent argument here, but it’s tough to be concise on such a touchy topic. To sum it up, I’m against gay marriage, but since there
are civil unions that provide the same benefits, I don’t know why there is still a problem. If gays are fighting for the right to use the word marriage,
I think they should ask themselves why. Is it for acceptance? If so, forcing a belief on others is the same thing they accuse non-gay marriage supporters
of doing.
p.s. This is in reference to the last post on the board. It was put there while I was working on my original response.
I’m not sure if you are saying that the Bible specifically is against Muslems, but that isn’t true. It basically puts people into two categories; believers and non-believers, and all people fall into one of these. Also, the Sabbath was originally Saturday, not Sunday, but Christ has taken that specific commandment away by saying that all days should be kept holy. Christians usually worship on Sunday, which is the first day of the week, not the last as is the Sabbath, because that is the day on which Christ rose from the dead.
Star Gazer you would be surprised how many 12 year olds will go for an old guy. But anyway, the previous poster said just about everything I was going to say but much more elligantly. a hundred years ago there weren't gays all over the places, its like afad now withi the last 10 or 20 years. Everyone is "coming out" and claiming to be gay, but yet they weren't gay the first 20 or 30 years of their life? They had no problem being married to their wives and having kids and stuff. It's just something to be different I guess. Don't really understand it, but no matter what anyone says on here, I still believe it's wrong.
Lmao Holly! Well you gotta do what you gotta do to maintain individualism, right? But then again, if you went against society, the church, and the government, you'd be banned from the people you love, have yourself and your family killed, or burned at the steak. So you could either tell everyone you're gay, or have one of these things happen to you. I'm sure those slaves were really happy having to answer to their masters, to be part of their property and not have any rights. Why did things have to change? I guess they wanted to be different too.
The more things change, the more they stay the same. The Bible states it like this…What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.
Ecclesiastes 1:9
Yes, the expression, “there is nothing new under the sun,” comes from the Christian Bible. You’re right when saying we have come a long way in medicine, science, etc., but human nature, which seems to be the main point in this board, remains the same. Love, greed, hope, judgment… these things never change. Going back to my earlier post, we all judge, we all have a personal value system. As a Christian, I try to base mine on biblical principles. You can say these are old and outdated, but again I say the more things change the more they stay the same, and I can point to the foundation of my beliefs. They don’t change just because the wind blows another direction.
Right now, those who thing homosexuality and/or gay marriage is wrong are being ridiculed, or treated with contempt, by those who don’t…which is a value judgment, the same thing we are being told we should not do. Those who accept homosexuality and gay marriage tend to have more liberal leanings, and are all for freedom of speech and action…unless it’s in disagreement with their own beliefs. Ironic, isn’t it?
Actually, as a person who disagrees with those who feel gay marriage (and possibly other types) are wrong I have to say. I don't look down on you just because we disagree. If I've come across as such I do appologize, however, I think I've stated many times it's just my opinion. I've tried to respond with my own logic when presented with situations; IE examples, on this and many other topics. I don't think I've downed others for disagreeing...I'd be glad to read back over my posts and check. However, I think your generalizing as is to often done against Christians, and which actions I've heard more than one Christian (on this very site) complain about. I don't agree; I think each has the right to their own opinion. I also think that each person is going to think their own way of doing things (or looking at things) is the "only" right way. Even in my case, however, I'll go one step farther and say my way is the only right way for me. I'm not going to even attempt to tell others how to live, what to do or what to think. Everyone is welcome to think the way they want as long as it hurts no one. However, I also don't have a problem debating/discussing...Which in my opinion is all we've been doing here. However, I think my primary problem with many Christians is that they think their way is the only way, and there is no room on this Earth for anyone else's way. They seem to think that they know what is best no matter the circumstances. Thank you however for explaining where your values come from, and your direct link is the bible. I know other religions use their own sources (sometimes the bible plus). I guess if one does take the bible as absolute truth you would see that you have a direct link to God's mouth...To put it the way I did before. *smile* However, if one doesn't agree with the bible being absolute truth that individual is bound to see things differently. I do have a question...I stated before that the bible doesn't necessarily put down insest...You stated "you are wrong about the incest, it is said to be wrong in great detail. " Now, how about Abrum and SareI...Can't get Jaws to say it correctly if I don't spell it the way I did. I don't have the exact quote...Don't have an accessible bible any longer...but she was his half-sister. I'm use to the "King James" version of the bible. Comments? Questions? Corrections? I plan on looking up an accessible bible later today...If I can find one, but I wasn't about to keep tons of books around so that I'd just have a bible.
Reading these posts makes me wonder whether I should have married a 1957 Chevy, especially one of the sport car versions, I mean, may be me and my wife can both marry one, if it means we got to own it for free it'd be rather neat.
I think Glenja states rather elegantly the basic Christian stance and I agree with him completely. I question though whether the gay movement is a new phenominon or whether it's just a lot more publicized now than it used to be. I'm not sure about the "the world is coming to an end and sexual deviance is on the rise" I just think the rapid spread of information now means that we know a lot more about each other than we ever used to and it's nearly impossible to hush things up or keep things secret.
And I disagree with the medicine comments, God gave us a brain and presumably intended for us to use it. If the products of such use are in line with God's principals how can they be against God's will. I may have been meant to die from cancer 25 years ago but science saved me then and has saved me again, enabled me to work and contribute, learn and see the world. The brain is wonderful and I see no reason, theological or otherwise, for us to stop using it.
Everyone has a choice, agree with poast 4,
not gay but have friends who are and It never has come between us, its just a choice, don't bash people for it because it is there parogitive just like wearing a jacket out side or not when its 50 degrees, this choice only impacts the choozer and there partner, so why do people get so damn heeted about it?
I was not referring to anyone in particular when I spoke of being looked down upon for not supporting gay rights/marriage, etc. The sarcasm though in the post before my previous one is an example of what I'm talking about though. He is clearly saying that we are behind the times, and that our point of view is dated. I may be generalizing somewhat, but if you objectively listen or watch the news, current TV shows, etc., you will see what I’m talking about. Those with a more conservative point of view are quite often portrayed as right-wing extremists without brains or common sense…usually portrayed in a buffoonish manner.
I’m not telling anyone else how to live their lives, just what my beliefs are, and where they come from. I don’t follow that “do it as long as it hurts no one” argument for the reasons I listed in my earlier post. There has to be boundaries, because what I might find “not harmful,” you may consider to be very harmful. When you start putting boundaries of any kind in, then the original statement does not hold up.
As for Christians thinking we’re right, well, don’t each of us think we are right? If we didn’t believe we were correct in our own beliefs, then we wouldn’t be holding them.
As for the incest, I didn’t say that it didn’t happen in the Bible, just that it was not condoned. In the early chapters, such as the case of Abraham and his wife, it happened, but it was outlawed by God in the time of Moses. A very good web site that answers questions about Christianity is “got answers.org,” and it states it like this…After the Flood, human life spans grew progressively shorter, indicating a change in the environment which resulted in damage to the human genetic structure.
This also explains why incest was necessary for the population of the earth in Genesis, but was forbidden later in the laws of Leviticus (verses 18:6-18).
I'm definitely for gay marriage. to answer a previous poster's question, no, I don't want marriage cause I'm seeking acceptance...I want it cause as a US citizen, I deserve to have the same rights as straight people.
You have the same rights as any other citizen. Marriage is not discussed in the constitution or the Bill of Rights. If you are talking secular rights, then there are legal ways to ensure these rights between two people, whether straight or gay. My niece is on our insurance, not because she is our child, but because of a legal document.
Lol! I am male, now...? JKJK.
Yeah, I am female, but no matter.
I am simply stating, that some of the Bible is quite ancient, and some things maybe need some considering. I however do not think the Bible is BS, but your generalizing some of it is a bit off. I am Christian myself, but I should rather say I don't take the Bible that litterally. The world has moved on somewhat.
Prejudices or rather being against gays is like calling a black person the N word. Hey, what would your reaction be, if someone called you that and you were black? Yay! That? I hope not... It's like being racists, but of some other nature rather then racists keeping the same kind of concept.
I myself isn't gay though. I refuse to marry my own gender, because I would prefer to marry another sex, but people that are Gay or Bi shouldn't be deserving such discriminations. I suppose some can marry a goat, or car, but they must understand that no reproduction will go on. Having goat sex might not be wise, but... and you obviously can't have car sex.
I’m not sure how you can be a Christian but not take the Bible too seriously. According to the Bible, a Christian is someone who has accepted Jesus Christ as Lord, and believes that he died as payment for our sins. This is stated in the Bible in John 3:16. Can you say you choose to believe this scripture, but not the scripture right before it or right after it? In my opinion, you either believe the Bible, or you don’t. If you start selectively believing scripture, then how do you decide which ones are true and which ones are false?
I have not generalized anything in relation to the Bible. I have not put specific scripture references down, but if you don’t believe what I say, let me know and I will direct you to where it is found in the Bible.
Your original post simply asked whether we were for against gays. I don’t expect anyones mind to change because of what I’ve written, but I have explained why I believe what I believe.
I also don’t believe I have condemned any specific person. The topic of this board was about homosexuality, not anger, idolatry, pride, or any other long list of things considered sinful in the Bible. The point is that in Christian belief, none of us are perfect, we are all sinners. The saying, “love the sinner, hate the sin,” sums up things quite nicely. I’ve never claimed to be prejudiced against people who are gay, having friends who are. This does not mean that I approve of their lifestyle though. Christ loved each of us, regardless of our nature, and He instructed each of us to do the same.
Well, gay is not bad in the bible. The only thing that the bible not allowed is that the gays act like a woman. What I mean is he is wearing dress of woman and having a relationship with the same sex. That are the only things that the bible is not permiting. Gay is not bad that's god's will. But the problem is when you are doing the wrong things that I mentioned above. I am sorry because I can't express all my ideas in English but I will try my best to do it.
I just have to make a few comments. Car sex? Would it be car sex if it was sex had in a car? Also, I could get a woman pregnant. It might involve a turkey baster and someone's "Frozen Pop" as my best friend calls it, but very technically, sure I could.
As for Holly's comment and the 30 years fad, it's not about something fun and new to try. First, Stonewall is a historical event that helped to give more publicity to the brutality that we as a minority group faced. Until Stonewall, the police regularly raided our bars, beat us up and raped both men and women. Even now, I have a professor friend who told me about being called into the hospital to visit with a former student. The girl was a straight ally for the gay community and had a button stating as much on her bag. In the middle of her college parking lot, 3 men attacked her and kicked her face so much that she was unrecognizable. We're not asking for special rights. We're asking to get the same privileges as straight citizens. Marriage is constitutional as long as there are tax rights entangled with the word.
We don't choose this...we just are. As one of my favorite magnets says, "God doesn't make mistakes". We don't choose to live in fear of being raped, beaten or killed every day for being or supporting gay people. You don't have to "believe in" us, but we are here and are more visible so that our ancestors didn't hide, pretend, suffer or die for nothing. My call to action is that no matter what you believe, please, try to talk those whose disapproval, fear or hatred manifest into violence into a more peaceful way of living. For themselves, for us, and for our respective gods, goddesses or non-religious well-being.
amen, jess. I couldn't have said it better myself.
Absolutely right! Thank you!
Like I've told my mom, we don't want special rights, we want equal rights.
Jen
This is a very interesting topic. I, for one, am totally for gay marriages. As I've said in other posts, I am the daughter of two lesbians and was beyond proud when, last august, they were finally able to have a civil union. They've been together for 18 years, and as their child, it felt wonderful watching them formalise that love and comittment to one another. As for age, I agree with post 12. There's a clear difference between a relationship where one partner is mentally incompetent and the other is and one in which both are equally competent. I say as long as it's between consenting adults, that's all that matters. I could never see myself with a woman, or even in an interracial relationship (not that my parents are in one of those), but that's a personal preference. I'm in an age gap relationship and that carries it's own stigmas and stereotypes. As for animals, the thought of that makes me sick, so I won't even go there, except to say that it's wrong. As for the Bible, let's not forget that not everyone is Christian. In my religion, for example, we have no problems with homosexual relationships. I also found the selectively choosing passages from the Bible to be interesting. There's a very thought-prevoking post about this posted, oddly enough, in the joke board. There are obviously some things that most people no longer do that were done back then. Anyway, I think the quote about the information age is very valid and that it's helping people band together. Of course, there have been homosexuals since the beginning of time. It's just that they've been held down and weren't able to speak out until now, due to loss of jobs, family, respect etc. And if you're the only one you can find who feels a certain way, it's very difficult to stand alone. So the internet and modern technology has helped. And way to go Jess! That was a beautiful post. My heart goes out to that poor woman. She's very couragious and I just hope that her experience hasn't changed her mind on the issue.
Well, personally, I don't believe that homosexuality is acceptable. Nor do I think it's genetic. I am a Christian and I believe the Bible to be the Word of God. I can't say I believe in homosexuality when the Bible is so clearly against it. However, I have cousins who are gay and they are great people. I know how hard it is for some people to be gay, and I certainly condemn any acts of violence or prejudice against gays. I try to adopt a love the sinner, hate the sin attitude. I am a sinner, and so though I do feel homosexual acts are sinful, I do believe that gays should be treated with dignity. I have to say though, I do agree that marriage is not a constitutional right, and I too think it's sacred. This doesn't mean I'd disagree with some sort of legal protection. I may be in the minority, but like previous posters, I think it's propper for children to have both a mother and father. I'm not really in favor of in vitro and other artificial means of ensemination as well. I do though have gay friends, and they are nice people.
I'm not going to be able to pull off the eloquent posts that half of you are coming out with (oops, no pun intended). But all I know is that some of my best friends are gay, and I want them to be happy and accepted. If they want to get married, and have a lavish wedding in a beautiful church surrounded by their loved ones, then why should they be denied that privilidge, just because their partner is the same sex that they are? I mean, seriously. What does reproduction have to do with love?
And I hate the whole "What about a child and an adult? What about an animal? What about a pole?" It's not the same, you guys. We're talking about human love. We're talking about committment. We're talking about wanting to share your life with someone you care about. So why shouldn't you be able to have a marriage that's just as valid as those of your peers, who just happen to have the genetic makeup and inclination that make them want to be with someone of the opposite sex? I don't understand what all the fuss is about...I really don't. It upsets me that people can't just be more accepting and tolerant. It's not hurting you. If religion is your thing, then aren't you meant to try and accept everyone and love everyone and not reject someone just because of how they feel or who they love? At least they're loving and not hating.
Sorry, I forgot this:
I don't think being gay is a fad. I think that, since it's more culturally accepted now, people are able to present themselves as being GLBTQ without so much fear of revulsion/rejection. It's been proven that homosexuality has existed all along, actually. Like in early art forms and all, it's depicted subtly, way back before it was considered "okay" to be gay.
Love is blind!
I don't think gay marriage is wrong, in my opinion. while both are ok with one another, there is nothing wrong with their decision, you see.
If you say that sex with the same jender is wrong, you must also admit this masterbation is also against natural, you know.
but, I say no to the sex with an animal. I can't even imagine that.
I feel that of course being gay is great. I do not though judge people who do not agree with me and do not feel I need to announce by the way I am gay to everyone I meett
Just for the record, legal marriage *is* a civil union. To get one, you apply for a marriage license and then sign a contract. It does not bestow any sort of religious recognition, it mandates things like inheritance, property sharing, ownership of a body by one person wwhen the other person dies, and a vast array of rather tangled legal rights and obligations that many people aren't fully aware of until after they have signed this contract. We award this status to straight people who have religious marriages but a religious marriage is not required and there are religions which are performing same-sex marriages that are not afforded this secular contract, just as once couples where one person was black and one was white who had religious marriages in some states were not permitted the legal contract. . It has nothing to do with the bible
I may not agree with the act of homosexuality, but I wouldn't condemn someone for being gay either. They'd still be the same person I've always known. I think it's sad how some people are driven to suicide because they think society, and worse yet, God won't accept them and their sexuality. Yet I thought God was all about love and forgiveness? If that's true, then why are so many things condemned and seen as unforgivable sins? I guess it depends on how literally you take the Bible, and while I think it's good for people to have a basis for how they should live, the Bible should not be interpreted as the one and only way to live. "Do this and that, and you'll get into heaven, but if not you'll burn forever." I have a hard time believing that God would send someone to hell because they chose to express their love a little differently than most of us do. I think a lot of people get carried away in their interpretations of what's right and wrong when only God himself is the one who's supposed to judge us. My boyfriend (who's an Israelite) has always said to me that if you condemn someone, you're in essence condemning yourself, because we weren't put here on this earth to do that. That's the reason there will be a judgment day. I know I got a little off topic, but I hope you can understand why I think, while I don't agree with gay marriage, it should be legal, because how would you like it if someone scrutinized your every action and decided for you whether you were allowed to get married or not? And as for the fact that marriage is sacred. I do agree with that completely, but I don't think that gays getting married dishonors that. Infidelity has been around since the beginning of time, and I think that should be more of an issue that whether or not people of the same sex should be allowed to marry.
right. i have read all these posts. now here is what i have to say.
1: I am proud to announce that i am a lesbian and am planning to marry my beautiful girlfriend one day. sorry for all those who are squeemish.
2: in the wiccan religion, as tifinitsa said, gay and lesbian mariage is allowed.
3 In countries such as Canada, it is legal to be married to someone of the same sex.
4 And again, i say, evin though i am not christian, If god is so loving, then why does the bible condem homosexuality? Does god not except all of us as we are?
Ok never seen this board before, hmm, but here's my 2 sence.
marriage is, by definition, a union between a man and a woman. Why did god make Eve for Adam? Calling a union between two gay people marriage contradicts the word. if the idea of marriage becomes so diluted as to include just about anything, what's so special about it then. It loses its value then. Civil union? Go rite ahead. And civil union is a government thing, not religious. Pastors, priests, Imams ,pandits,Rabbis, don't do civil unions. And you guys could say "oh it should be between 2 people who love each other". Well what if a brother and sister wanted to get married for some messed up reason cuz they loved each other in an intimate way and not a brother sister way. Yeah it's illegal, but what if it wasn't? Sure even gay people would think that was wrong. Just like many think gay marriage is.
I agree with screaming turtle though, i find it hard to believe that god will send those to hell for loving the same sex. I still think gay marriage is almost as wrong as insest, abortion and infidelity personally, but at the end of the day, it's them who'll have to answer to god about that, not me. I have my own sins, lol. Don't get me wrong, i have bi friends and gay friends, and i don't judge them for being gay, i just think again gay marriage is not what marriage is meant to be.
ok, for those people who were married for 20-30 years before coming out as gay, they live on the down lo, meaning they do what is socially acceptible so they don't get frowned upon.
I'm gay, and that is just the way I am.
and then they think it's ok to hurt people in the meanwhile leading their whole family on. I knew a girl who's father was married to her mother for 17 years before he decided he was gay. Selfish, i'd say.
selfish? whatever. you obviously don't understand the trials and tribulations that come with being gay, so...
pricesly. love is love, with in reason, ok, insest, to each his own, to have an extream pairing like 12 and 30, well, that is also elegal too. but homosexuality is natural. who are we to supress who someone can and can't love, with in reason.
some people know deep down they are gay, but supress it because of so called social norms. now marriage is not a religious thing, if it were, then registry offices would not be allowed, for christians would create hell against any govt who took marriage outside the church. marriage is only the formal union of two people, nothing more, nothing less. civil partnerships are called such, because the religious lobby does not like the word marriage used in context of gay relationships. christians tend to make gays out to be disgusting, but homosexial relationships in nature happen, so in humans too. the UK law gives gay and lesbian couples the same rights now as hetrosexual couples.
thanks Kodiak bear; I couldn't have said it better myself.
I've always known deep down I was gay, but, as was said, I hid it cause of the way society, and my family viewed it. just cause you don't understand something, doesn't mean you have to fear it. if you have questions, just ask; there's no harm in that...but it's not fair for you to judge gay people cause of your misconceptions.
some people don't judge by just them, some are guided to their fear by their religion.
there is nothing to fear about gay people. the religious standpoint against gay and lesbian people is that they believe marriage is about procreation. bollocks! it's about family finances. get with a good man or woman, and you stregthen the family, so marriage does that. hmmm. procreation and marriage do not need to go hand in hand. let's hear it for gay and lesbian people and their civil partnerships! yay! paws up to them! heheeh
*plays with your paws* thanks for the support; it's greatly appreciated!
hehehe, kodiak bear thanks you. big hugs. np.
high fives the bears paws with her tiger paws, yes.
yes we can and yes we do!!
sorry, I couldn't resist.
I wholeheartedly agree with post 40. I don't even think I need to add anything else as far as the original question is concerned. But to some of the people who have said 'who are we to say who someone can or can't love' and things along those lines, I don't think anyone wants to do that. At least no one I know or have seen. To disagree with gay marriage, to think that it's wrong, is not telling someone who they can or can't love. As far as I'm concerned, you're perfectly entitled to love whoever you want. Love is great. It's only saying that the marriage of two people of the same sex is wrong and should not be legalized.
Now that I just wasted a half an hour reading all of these, ...
This has been an issue that I've struggled with because I have always been totally for gay marriage, until the biblical statements were pointed out to me and I started studdying it more. I think I know what I think now, although it's still a really sensitive issue for me, and I like talking to other Christians to help me with this one.
I think denying homosexuals their hospital visitation rights, or any rights like that, is wrong. I am strongly opposed to denying all of these rights, and I think that disalloing Civil unions is a direct violation to the constitution, and a judgment that the government can't make. legal gay marriages should be allowed, like at city hall or whatever. I can't cosine church marriages though, because forcing a religious figure, such as a priest, to change how they view a Sacred affair, is denying them the right to practice their religion. Does that make sense? I feel like I'm blabbing, lol.
In terms of whether it's natural or whatever, let God be the judge. My place is to love everyone, and protect my religion.
that, actually does make sense. amazingly...
I’m for same sex marriage. People who are lgtbq are one of the many minorities impacted by religious hysteria. It’s a shame that the biblical references used in this thread were only for means of attacking others and protecting Christianity.
I used to be a Christian, but couldn’t submit to all the rules in the bible. Does that mean I’m going to burn in hell? I thought that if I loved all those around me and comforted all who needed a friend and honestly loved all and judged nobody that I’d be all right. There is a horrible epidemic in today’s churches. It’s called hunger for power and social acceptance. Only select people have these privileges. If you are a minority or a person with a disability than you are not one of the chosen people. People like us are what those privileged people use for their personal social foot stools. The over achieving college graduate with the perfect boyfriend who sings on the praise team can say how she gives people with disabilities rides to church… Those people with disabilities are prayer leaders, college students, hold jobs and have significant others, but they are not Privileged.
People who are lgbtq are not privileged in our society. God is with those of us at the very bottom of society. Why would he choose for Christ to be born into a poor family? Why would he choose Mary as a mother? She is a woman and woman are second class in the Christian religion. If Jesus lived with mankind on earth than he would have the ability to understand and comfort all people living in all types of pain. A God with all the love that the bible portrays would not stand to see his children saved or not burn in hell. The most important thought to my opinion is that the bible was written by man who are trusted by God to deliver his exact message. Man is flawed and could have easily changed God’s words or heard the voice of the devil as well…
Our world gets off on oppression and as long as some group is oppressed those pribellaged people can ride high on top of their fluffy cloud of self-importance.
amen to the last poster; thank you!!
In post 15 Glenja said, "Marriage seems to fall under a religious category, while civil union is under a governmental category. I don’t know of any main stream religions that support gay marriage. If the marriages are legalized by government, it would in essence be telling people how they can or can’t worship."
While few denominations as a whole do, there are many individual Christian churches that support the right for gays to marry. In my city alone there are nearly 30 Christian churches of various denominations that are welcoming and affirming of gay relationships and marriage. Also, the evangelical Lutheran church voted in August to allow their pastors to be in gay committed relationships and to marry gay couples.
In the states where gay marriage exists, the laws were written such that any church or religious organization will not be forced to perform a wedding that goes against it's doctrine. Although that is actualy unnecessary because churches have never been forced to perform a wedding of a union it does not approve of. Also what couple is going to seek a wedding ceremony from a church that does not approve of them? For example, an African American couple, or a bi-racial couple are not likely to seek a wedding from a church that is attended by racist biggots. On the same token a gay couple is not likely to request a wedding ceremony in a church that does not approve of their "lifestyle." But again the laws have been written such that churches who do not agree with gay marriage will not have to perform or bless such weddings.
god there are a lot of topics on this same thing.
and your point, so what if there are a lot of topics about the same thing...
Holly, I just saw this board, and am deeply saddened. Let me ask you this. If you found out that there was some physical reason that you could not have a child, by your own standards, should that mean that noone should want to marry you, since you can't reproduce? Just because a couple cannot have a child together should not, in my own opinion, be the prove all point that their love for one another is invalid.
Gay isn't right. If it were supposed to be right then a woman and a woman or a man and a man could have a child together. Obviously a man can't get another man pregnant. We are supposed to be man and woman, that is the way we were made in order to keep the world going by reproducing. Crack babies, babies with no home, older children abused by their heterosexual parents, couples who's mom is strugling, and who's dad isn't at home at al, God's marage vals defiled by the very people who expressed them in his Church among the flowers, ready with only their own love to proceed. The Garbage cans in Allies, The foster care system for those who have the right number to call. Need I say nmore? Remember now, please? Gay isn't right. If it were supposed to be right then a woman and a woman or a man and a man could have a child together. Obviously a man can't get another man pregnant. We are supposed to be man and woman, that is the way we were made in order to keep the world going by reproducing.
And let me add here.. For those of you who're educated enough to get rid of your progriational mistakes in less stark ways. Let's se.. Some of you take the spouse, God's ordained partner to court so someone else can decide what happens to your progriational mistakes, right? Yes you do. As a result we have a specific court here in the U.S. that decides what amount of money the absentee parent actually pays to the custodial parent. Now, please remember, Kids, Heterosexuals are surely bound for God's Heaven while we, who plan our children, seek partners out with no concern for missaprogriation of parental responsibility are surely bound for this same God's hell.. What a sad, and sickening Joke.
Just one more thing. Your sons, and Daughters struggle with the same identity issues as they come of age, ok? Now if you're so set against the alternative life styles, you may find that your own child chooses to end his/her own life, rather than face your rejection.. Now this is the stark truth of it.
With all my heart, and soul, I agree with you Liberated Delabbidation.. And I totally understand why you've given yourself the screen name you have! *Hugs*
Just one more example of this religious board's contridictions..
Wow. I completely forgot I posted on this topic and I'm not afraid to write that I am openly gay and I don't care what anybody thinks. I'll tell Christ to his face.
I think it's not my business unless it's something that directly affects me, like active gay males in the blood donor pool. Sorry folks, but even one of the local public health clinics here published recently in the METRO that 63% of new HIV positive cases were homosexual males, so even with all of the screening that's available, it's still a high risk group.
I fail to see...both among homophobes and among those promoting the gay agenda...the purpose of making such a big fuss over a group that comprises a tiny minority of the human population. I have even seen stories of straight men who get aroused by images of women getting intimate with other women. What gives?! I am neither repulsed nor aroused by gay adults provided they are intimate with or seeking other gay adults & not interfering with heterosexual relationships.
I'm against it, because it led to topics like this being created.
Seriously though,the only gays I'm against are the ones who say they don'tlike women then get with men who act like women, try to talk like women, dress like women, etc. It's like having a girlfriend with a dick or something, and those type of men are bloody annoying anyway.
I've always found that a bit perplexing yes. but here is my opinion. I think people care too much about each others differences. I gave a debate on capital hill last year, my senior year of high school speaking for the don't ask don't tell bill. bill number 8675309. I don't think it is right for anyone to place restraints on a person because of their sexual orientation. Gay people should be able to marry, especially in the united states. This country was founded on the basis of wanting to have a place where you weren't condemned for your differences. In that case, religion. Who are we to tell someone what they should and shouldn't be able to do? Just because a man is gay, he can't shed his blood for our country? How selfish is that? Just because a woman loves another woman they shouldn't be able to marry? Please I mean really. The religions have been twisted to fit a ton of people's lifestyles. Holy books are all left up to interpretation. And then you have to factor things that weren't ok when they were written but are accepted now and vice versa. At the end of the day, its just another reason for a person to hate another person, we have enough of those already. Live and let live. If it isn't hurting you, why should you worry about it? I respect people of all races, religions, orientations if they are care free gentle, kind hearted, understanding, respectful people. I think people should learn more to respect difference and appreciat it rather than criticize it.
Oh, by the way. I won first place at that national debate competition.
I've been scribbling a bit on this topic as I've watched it and similar ones on this site.
OK several fronts:
First, there are many things Christians have found challenging over the years.
The deaf were seen until the 15th century or thereabouts as eternally condemned. Why? Because the text reads all about the hearing of the Word.
Now before you rush off and judge the Christians for this, they were dealing with extremely limited knowledge as to hand signals usage not just for deaf but even in combat and other scenarios we take hand signals (sign language included) for granted.
I personally have encounter people who, with countless scriptures, were convinced my being blind was a decision: perhaps not to be blind, as that happened at least at embryonic stage in my case, but to 'remain so'. Their thinking goes something like this: Factor enough faith and you somehow myteriously acquire the necessary hardware to achieve sight, and the necessary software to immediately know how to use it. I find that highly doubtful.
The current anti-gay and previous Eugenics movements share a lot in common: misrepresentation of data on alleged population problems and the like.
But the major issue is civilized behavior. The gay people are targeted right now as a small fractional group of people, easy to pick on / ellicit titilating and gratifying tales around the campfire and on AM radio about what they insert where and alleged (to date unproven) hospital visits. Make no mistake, this is exactly the same crowd.
This crowd also is small, but like any bullying crowd, they make a lot of noise. And, like any churlish bully, when confronted, they immediately begin to blubber like a great big baby.
Many of us straight people, myself included, don't really understand being gay, we can't. We're not wired that way. Many of us don't want everything gay constantly to be shoved in our faces, because we don't like anything shoved in our faces. If you had everything frogs, desert parades featuring frogs, industrial complexes featuring frogs, constantly put in front of us, we wouldn't like that either. That's no fault of the frogs themselves, but the fault of those putting in our faces. And we're not alone: I know gay people who want to live their normal lives and are just sick of the dramatization of gayness in the media. None of that has to do with being gay.
As to tolerance vs. intolerance:
Nobody is asking anybody to change their view, whether they belly-ache about gays, or try and terrorize small business owners who happen to sell domestically-raised fur products.
Believe what you will: Just be civil enough not to ever allow said beliefs to spoil things for everybody else. That's not softfooted tolerance, that' have the maturity level exceeding that of a six-year-old. So, you don't believe being gay is right? Don't "be gay", I guess. You believe domestically raised furs are a problem, don't buy them.
As to what one believes as a Christian, if you've converted, you must know that a. you weren't always one, and b. not everyone is going to think like you.
By way of example, I recently joined the volunteer arm of the Coast Guard. I'm reasonably passionate about what it is we're doing, but that doesn't mean I expect to see you all in uniform. In fact, it would be odd and insulting the uniform for someone to be wearing it who is not sworn.
Any preacher, priest, rabbi or anything else can deny to perform your marriage ceremony for any conceivable reason, or no reason t all, and they are completely and totally exempt. Know why? Because matters of religion are not sustainable in an evidence-based black-and-white pragmatic judicial system where evidence equals names, dates, blood hair, DNA, you name it.
Finally, how is it that a bunch of blind people, the least represented minority anywhere, the perhaps most misunderstood in many ways at least in regards to capabilities, can on the one hand go asking and supporting additional support / rights / benefit for themselves while very deliberately supporting the denunciation of the rights of others?
This is no intellectual exercise: it's plain sick.
And it's about as sensible as a bunch of conservatives living on wellfare benefits or social security, or anything else they decry for anybody else. Come on people, at least try to come off as semi-consistent/logical! I'd give out an A for effort, but first, I'm an old stick in the mud and don't believe in A's for effort, and second, I think grading on a curve neutralizes the very purpose of having any form of grade or standard at all.
Just my thoughts.
Ya know? I see so much about how gays flaunt this and that, how straight people are just sick to death of seeing the gays doing this or that, but what the straight people as a whole just plain don't get is that straight sex is shoved down the gay people's throats every day. It's everywhere, and if the gays say anything about it, they're ridiculed for being abnormal. Yes, there are gay people who flaunt it. Yes, there are straight people who don't. I just don't understand the double standard.
At least for some of us, it's the flaunting. Not the gay. Religious proseletyzers face the same, and so do political people on street corners. I contest it has nothing to do with being gay. By 'flaunting' I don't mean some gay guy referencing where he and his boyfriend went last night, that's just normal day-to-day conversation. And I don't mean someone asking for the normal rights any decent civilized society offers its citizens.
Leo you always manage to say what noone else will. I love that. I don't attack people for what they believe or what they don't believe. But like you said. Most people on this sight are blind and know what it is like to be condemned because of their differences and denied rights of some sort or another. Its beyond hypocritical for them to demean another because of their differences. I've read the bible, front to back, and thing is, maybe it says being gay is wrong, but it also says things like love thy neighbor, and thou shalt not judge. It doesn't say don't love thy neighbor if he/she is gay. Or judge the gays. I really think people care too much about it and it breaks my heart. But i'll never get the peaceful world where respect and appreciation exists. Like I said, its just another reason to hate, judge, and patronize another human being. If you are christian, your god, does not hate the gays based on his word, he loves them like he does all of his "children." If you are adopting the love the sinner, hate the sin attitude, then why be so harsh about it? And, you aren't god. isn't it up to him to decide who is a sinner and what should be tolerated and what shouldn't? Afterall, he's god. Noone's opinion matters but his anyways. That is if you believe in that sort of thing.
Robo definitely has a way with words and isn't afraid to say what he thinks. I like that.
Remaining blind by choice? Let's just say that's the most unique thing I've heard in awhile. This is part of why I don't practice a religion but I leave to others the choice to practice one if they wish. It just seems too many, no matter what faith, pick some part of scripture or other and discard what is inconvenient for them. For example, when I was young & single, I took a course in Torah, or Old Testament, and I distinctly remember a part, I believe in Leviticus, "Thou shall set no obstacles in the way of the blind." Isn't the Old Testament considered a part of the Christian Bible any more?
Those interested in the homosexuality aspect of Biblical teachings should look up CNN's special on "God's Warriors", those of all three monotheistic faiths, and see if there is a way to access this program. The most interesting person on this topic was a Christian minister widely regarded by the Christian right as a heretic, can't remember his name, but anyway he said, "Yeah, homosexual sex is regarded as a sin, but so is gluttony, so is adultery, so are any other number of behaviors...if the Christian right want a real political agenda, they need to come up with more than anti abortion, anti homosexuality rhetoric."
The way I was explained O.T. passages, it wasn't the love between two human beings of the same sex that was regarded as despicable, but in particular the male-male sex act, "If a man lies with another man he dies the same as if he lies with a harlot." I get a lot of work that is based on diseases of the male-male relation, but I don't believe it is my right to mistreat gay people, and have had normal working & neighbor relations with gay & lesbians.
I was reading some years ago on one of those Islam Q & A sites the scholar's response to a man's question, something like "Does Allah forgive homosexuality"? The response was similar to my teaching on the O.T., the love is one thing if it isn't acted on, it's the act that is regarded as evil. The man was advised to marry a woman to properly channel his desires, and if that wasn't possible, to fast from dawn to dusk to curb the sexual desire. Avoidance of the sexually transmitted diseases of the male relation was part of the reason behind the response.
The latter, or fasting, advice is one thing, but personally I see the former as going against the teachings of Judeo-Christian/Islam in one way: dealing with others by deception. To marry a woman to curb one's real desire, not out of genuine interest in her or desire to be a family, to me is deception. I think the late Rock Hudson showed just how well that worked. Also, Raymond Burr of "Perry Mason" fame was divorced from two women, but left his estate in the end to his real love, a man named Robert.